2024年6月8日土曜日

フリードマン、イスラエルを語る


 
 
slowslow2772
⁦‪@slowslow2772‬⁩
Capitalism, Socialism, and the Jews youtu.be/ulqBb4JePuQ
Dr. Friedman gave a lecture entitled, "Capitalism and the Jews" at the University of Chicago in 1978. pic.twitter.com/shXHuzLtx8
 
2024/06/09 12:21
 
 
https://x.com/slowslow2772/status/1799642978484691336?s=61

Capitalism, Socialism, and the Jews https://youtu.be/ulqBb4JePuQ?si=AWBwogN8a2IFuukT @YouTubeより




https://youtu.be/ulqBb4JePuQ?si=AWBwogN8a2IFuukT

8:22 私には非常に強い信念があるからです
8:23イスラエルに対する個人的な同情と関心
8:26私はユダヤ人です
8:28出身地と文化 私は彼らの価値観を共有しています
8:30そして彼らの信念を私は共有しています 8:32イスラエルで起こった奇跡に対して多くの人が抱いている賞賛を共有


before we began to do this this program i was thinking about uh where is it written and i was considering going back to a very ancient civilization mostly in terms of the the reports that that we have that you may in your visits to israel advise the new israeli government in terms of its economic problems and i i wanted to ask you a question i wanted to ask you a question about a remark that i had heard you make in connection with this story about the role you might play in relation to the new israeli government you said something like this and to the degree that i'm distorting your words or your thoughts please please uh correct me it is somewhat strange that socialism is supposed to find so many friends and capitalism so many enemies among jews when perhaps some people might think that the essence of the jewish tradition is so alien to socialism and so akin to to capitalism and i i wondered to the extent that you meant much of that what you meant by it well i think i mean i would i would endorse certainly that statement as you put it while going on to say it needs some elaboration in some respects let me see if i can put it to you in a in a sort of a different way my first visit to israel was made about 15 years ago i was there for about three months as a visitor at the hebrew university in jerusalem and after i left israel i summarized my impressions by saying that i thought that the best way to understand israel was to recognize that two jewish traditions were at war with one another in israel one of them was a very recent tradition a tradition of 150 years old that's the tradition of socialism that's the tradition you referred to in your initial comments that it is true that on the whole the jewish intellectuals have been strongly pro-socialist and have contributed disproportionately to the socialist literature that was the one tradition the other tradition i said was a tradition that was at least 2 000 years old it was a tradition that had arisen during the diaspora and as a result of the diaspora it was a tradition of how you get around government regulations how you find chinks in controls how you find those areas in which the free market operates and makes the most of it make the most of it it was that tradition which had enabled the jews to survive during centuries of persecution by the constituted authorities you know the jews almost never were protected by the constituted authorities once in a while there would be a monarch who would uh who would intervene in favor of the jews but almost always that was because there had been a jew who had accumulated enough money through the free market through capitalism to have loaned money to the monarch and have gotten him in his debt the story in the bible of esther is not a very usual story that isn't usually the way it occurs most of the time the jews have survived despite the opposition of the powers that be not because of it and this ancient tradition of 2000 years is still very much alive at israel and what i said at that time was that fortunately for israel the ancient tradition is stronger than the newer one now let me go back to that in a modern context i believe that there are few people in the world who have benefited as much from capitalism and free enterprises and jews suppose you ask yourself in what countries it is that the jews have been able to survive and thrive they've been able to survive and thrive primarily in those countries that have had capitalism and free enterprise they haven't been able to survive and thrive in the socialist utopias of russia or of poland they haven't been able to they weren't able to survive and thrive in the national socialist state of nazi germany they have been able to survive and thrive in places like great britain in germany when it was capitalist before hitler in france which is largely capitalist in the united states now more important in what parts of those economies have they done best in those parts where government has had the least role to play you do not find in the united states that the jews have done very well in large-scale manufacturing or in commercial banking because those are areas which are very closely intertwined with government in banking you need a governmental franchise and there are there is probably no industry in the united states in which there are fewer jews surprising as it may seem in major positions of responsibility in their than in the commercial banking industry where have they thrived in the industries which have been most competitive where there's been the least monopoly private or public retailing which is open was open to all in new industries in hollywood




5:10

why because it was a new brand new industry there were no set of positions of of of of privilege or of power no government involvement so jews have done best and other minorities i'm not only speaking of jews if you look at the japanese in the united states if you look at the blacks in the united states in every case they have done best in those areas where you've had the greatest degree of competition and they have done worst in those areas where you've had the most monopoly and the most governmental link to government so on the one hand there are no people in the world who have benefited so much from capitalism as the jews look at israel suppose socialism a triumph in the world where would israel have gotten support did israel get support in its early and difficult days from the governments of the world or from people and from what people from the jews who had managed to make a little bit of a competence for themselves and accumulate a little funds in the capitalist bastions of the world so the jews have benefited enormously from capitalism and yet on the other side and that's the issue you raise here you have the paradox that the jews have been among those who have contributed much to undermine the intellectual foundations of capitalism is this a dichotomy that exists in contemporary israel too of course of course it has existed then how will you make a contribution oh well you know how it is i will make a contribution i'd be delighted to if i could but you know people ask for advice from from people who they know will give them the advice they want to hear there is no shortage of good economists in israel there are very good economies they know what to do and in fact the economists in israel have not been in favor of governmental policies in israel it's as it it's like it has been in the united states where the economists have been opposed uniformly to many governmental policies such as the price fixing policies i was talking about such as rent control similarly the economists in israel have been almost unanimously opposed to some many governmental controls and regulations what's happened in israel is that you now have a new party that came into power the lakut it's a party that proclaims its belief in private enterprise it proclaims its desire to cut reduce the size of government and to give greater opportunities to the individuals their objectives are excellent i hope they achieve them i'm not totally confident that they will in fact i have many doubts about whether they will succeed and the reason why they have asked me if i would advise them is because they know that i believe in a free economy and that that their policy is my policy and insofar as i can give any assistance i am delighted to both because uh of my general desire to see freedom prosper and also 
because i have a very strong personal sympathy and interest in israel i am jewish by origin and culture i share their values and their belief i share the admiration which many have had for the miracles that have occurred in israel so if i can make any contribution to a more effective policy for preserving israel israel's freedom and strength i would certainly be delighted to do so you






0:00before we began to do this this program
0:02i was thinking about uh
0:04where is it written and i was
0:06considering going back to a very ancient
0:08civilization
0:11mostly in terms of the the reports that
0:13that we have that
0:15you may in your visits to israel advise
0:18the new israeli government
0:21in terms of its economic problems and i
0:24i wanted to ask you a question i wanted
0:26to ask you a question about a remark
0:28that
0:28i had heard you make in connection with
0:30this story
0:31about the role you might play in
0:34relation to the new israeli government
0:36you said something like this and to the
0:38degree that i'm distorting your words or
0:40your thoughts please
0:41please uh correct me it is somewhat
0:44strange that
0:45socialism is supposed to find so many
0:48friends
0:48and capitalism so many enemies among
0:51jews
0:52when perhaps some people might think
0:54that the essence of the jewish tradition
0:55is so
0:56alien to socialism and so akin to
1:00to capitalism and i i wondered to the
1:02extent that you meant
1:04much of that what you meant by it well i
1:07think i mean
1:08i would i would endorse certainly
1:11that statement as you put it while
1:14going on to say it needs some
1:16elaboration in some respects
1:19let me see if i can put it to you in a
1:21in a sort of a different
1:23way my first visit to israel was made
1:26about 15 years ago
1:28i was there for about three months as a
1:31visitor at the hebrew university in
1:33jerusalem and after i left israel
1:38i summarized my impressions by saying
1:42that i thought that the best way to
1:44understand israel was to recognize
1:46that two jewish traditions
1:49were at war with one another in israel
1:52one of them was a very recent
1:54tradition a tradition of 150 years old
1:57that's the tradition of socialism that's
2:00the
2:00tradition you referred to in your
2:02initial comments that
2:04it is true that on the whole
2:09the jewish intellectuals have been
2:11strongly pro-socialist
2:13and have contributed disproportionately
2:15to the socialist literature
2:17that was the one tradition the other
2:19tradition i said
2:21was a tradition that was at least 2 000
2:23years old it was a tradition that had
2:25arisen during the diaspora
2:27and as a result of the diaspora it was a
2:30tradition of how you get around
2:31government regulations
2:32how you find chinks in controls
2:36how you find those areas in which the
2:38free market operates and makes the most
2:40of it
2:41make the most of it it was that
2:42tradition which had enabled the jews to
2:44survive during centuries of persecution
2:46by the constituted authorities
2:49you know the jews almost never were
2:50protected
2:52by the constituted authorities once in a
2:54while
2:55there would be a monarch who would uh
2:58who would intervene in favor of the jews
3:01but almost always that was because there
3:02had been a jew who had accumulated
3:04enough money through the free market
3:06through capitalism
3:07to have loaned money to the monarch and
3:10have gotten him in his debt
3:11the story in the bible of esther
3:15is not a very usual story that isn't
3:17usually the way it occurs
3:19most of the time the jews have survived
3:21despite the opposition
3:23of the powers that be not because of it
3:26and this ancient tradition of 2000 years
3:29is still very much alive at israel and
3:31what i said at that time was that
3:32fortunately for israel
3:34the ancient tradition is stronger than
3:36the newer one now let me go back to that
3:38in a modern context
3:41i believe that there are few people in
3:43the world who have benefited as much
3:46from capitalism and free enterprises and
3:48jews
3:49suppose you ask yourself in what
3:50countries it is
3:52that the jews have been able to survive
3:54and thrive
3:55they've been able to survive and thrive
3:58primarily in those countries
4:00that have had capitalism and free
4:02enterprise they haven't been able to
4:04survive and thrive in the socialist
4:06utopias
4:07of russia or of poland
4:11they haven't been able to they weren't
4:12able to survive and thrive
4:14in the national socialist state
4:17of nazi germany they have been able to
4:20survive and thrive
4:22in places like great britain in germany
4:25when it was capitalist before
4:26hitler in france which is largely
4:30capitalist in the united states
4:32now more important in what parts of
4:34those
4:35economies have they done best in those
4:39parts where government has had the least
4:41role to play
4:42you do not find in the united states
4:44that the jews have done very well in
4:46large-scale manufacturing or in
4:48commercial banking
4:50because those are areas which are very
4:52closely intertwined with government
4:54in banking you need a governmental
4:56franchise and there are there is
4:57probably no industry in the united
4:59states in which there are fewer jews
5:02surprising as it may seem in major
5:04positions of responsibility in their
5:06than in the commercial banking industry
5:08where have they thrived
5:10in the industries which have been most
5:11competitive where there's been the least
5:13monopoly private or public
5:16retailing which is open was open to all
5:19in new industries in hollywood why
5:22because it was a new
5:23brand new industry there were no set of
5:25positions of
5:27of of of privilege or of power no
5:29government involvement
5:31so jews have done best and other
5:34minorities i'm not only speaking of jews
5:36if you look at the japanese in the
5:37united states if you look at the blacks
5:38in the united states
5:40in every case they have done best in
5:42those areas where you've had the
5:44greatest degree of competition and they
5:45have done worst
5:47in those areas where you've had the most
5:48monopoly and the most governmental
5:51link to government so on the one hand
5:54there are no people in the world who
5:56have benefited so much from
5:58capitalism as the jews look at israel
6:01suppose socialism a triumph in the world
6:04where would israel have gotten support
6:07did israel get support in its early and
6:09difficult days from the
6:11governments of the world or from people
6:14and from what people from the jews who
6:17had managed
6:18to make a little bit of a competence for
6:21themselves and accumulate a little funds
6:23in the capitalist bastions of the world
6:27so the jews have benefited enormously
6:32from capitalism and yet on the other
6:33side
6:34and that's the issue you raise here you
6:35have the paradox
6:38that the jews have been among those who
6:41have contributed much to undermine
6:45the intellectual foundations
6:48of capitalism is this a dichotomy that
6:51exists in contemporary israel too
6:53of course of course it has existed
6:57then how will you make a contribution oh
6:59well you know how it is i will make a
7:00contribution i'd be delighted to if i
7:02could
7:03but you know people ask for advice from
7:05from people who they know will give them
7:06the
7:07advice they want to hear there is no
7:09shortage of good economists in israel
7:11there are very good economies they know
7:12what to do and in fact the economists in
7:14israel have not been in favor of
7:15governmental policies in israel
7:17it's as it it's like it has been in the
7:20united states
7:21where the economists have been opposed
7:24uniformly
7:25to many governmental policies such as
7:27the price fixing policies i was talking
7:29about such as rent
7:30control similarly the economists in
7:32israel have been almost
7:34unanimously opposed to some many
7:36governmental controls and regulations
7:39what's happened in israel is that you
7:40now have a new party that came into
7:42power the lakut
7:43it's a party that proclaims its belief
7:46in private enterprise it proclaims its
7:49desire to cut reduce the size of
7:51government
7:52and to give greater opportunities to the
7:54individuals their objectives are
7:55excellent
7:56i hope they achieve them i'm not totally
7:59confident that they will in fact i have
8:00many
8:01doubts about whether they will succeed
8:04and the reason why they have asked me if
8:06i would advise them is because they know
8:08that i believe in a free economy and
8:10that that
8:10their policy is my policy and insofar as
8:13i can give any assistance i am delighted
8:15to
8:15both because uh of my general
8:19desire to see freedom prosper and also
8:22because i have a very strong

8:23personal sympathy and interest in israel
8:26i am jewish by
8:28origin and culture i share their values
8:30and their belief i share the admiration
8:32which
8:33many have had for the miracles that have
8:36occurred in israel
8:37so if i can make any contribution to a
8:40more effective policy for preserving
8:43israel israel's freedom and strength i
8:46would certainly be delighted to do so
9:05you

このプログラムを始める前に、えーっと、それはどこに書かれているのか考えていました。主に、イスラエル訪問の際に新しい人々にアドバイスするために私たちが持っている報告の観点から、非常に古代の文明に戻ることを考えていました。経済問題の観点からイスラエル政府について質問したいのですが、この話に関連してあなたが新イスラエル政府に対して果たす役割について聞いた発言について質問したいと思いました。あなたはこのようなことを言いましたが、私はあなたの言葉や考えを歪めているので、お願いします、修正してください、社会主義がユダヤ人の中に非常に多くの友人を見つけ、資本主義が非常に多くの敵を見つけることになっているのは少し奇妙です、おそらく一部の人はそう思うかもしれませんユダヤ人の伝統の本質は社会主義とは異質で、資本主義に似ているということ、そして、あなたがそれをどういう意味で言ったのか、かなり疑問に思いました、私もあなたと同じようにその発言を支持したいと思いますいくつかの点でもう少し詳しく説明する必要があると言いながら、別の方法で伝えられるかどうか考えさせてください 私の初めてのイスラエル訪問は約 15 年前で、私は約 3 年間そこにいましたエルサレムのヘブライ大学で数か月訪問者として過ごし、イスラエルを離れた後、イスラエルを理解する最良の方法は、イスラエルでは二つのユダヤ人の伝統が互いに対立していることを認識することだと思う、と自分の印象をまとめました。ごく最近の伝統 150年前の伝統 それは社会主義の伝統 あなたが最初のコメントで言及した伝統です 全体的にユダヤ人の知識人が非常に親社会主義的であり、社会主義文学に不釣り合いな貢献をしてきたのは事実ですそれは一つの伝統でした もう一つの伝統は少なくとも2000年前の伝統だと言いました それは離散中に生まれた伝統であり、離散の結果としてそれは政府の規制をどのように回避するかという伝統でしたあなたはコントロールの欠陥を見つける 自由市場が運営されている分野をどのように見つけてそれを最大限に活用するか それを最大限に活用する その伝統こそが、組織された当局による何世紀にもわたる迫害の中でユダヤ人が生き残ることを可能にしたのである あなたはユダヤ人を知っている構成された権威によって保護されることはほとんどなかった たまには、ユダヤ人に有利に介入する君主が現れることもあったが、それはほとんどの場合、資本主義を通じて自由市場を通じて十分なお金を貯め込んだユダヤ人がいたからである君主にお金を貸して借金をしてもらったということ 聖書のエステルの話はあまりありふれた話ではなく、ユダヤ人は列強の反対にも関わらず生き延びてきたのに、たいていの場合そんなことは起こらないそれはそのせいではなく、この2000年の古代の伝統は今でも残っています。私はイスラエルでとても生きています。その時私が言ったのは、幸いなことにイスラエルにとっては古い伝統が新しい伝統よりも強いということです。ここで話を現代の文脈に戻しましょう。恩恵を受けている人は世界中でほとんどいないと信じています。資本主義と自由企業とユダヤ人の影響と同じくらい、ユダヤ人はどの国で生き残り、繁栄することができたのか、主に資本主義と自由企業があった国々で生き残り、繁栄することができたと自問するとします。ロシアやポーランドの社会主義理想郷では生き延びて繁栄することはできなかった 国家社会主義国家であるナチス・ドイツでは生き延びて繁栄することができなかった 彼らは生き延びて繁栄することができたヒットラー以前は資本主義だったドイツのイギリスのような場所、フランスでは大部分が資本主義になっているが、今では経済のどの部分で政府が最も果たすべき役割を果たせたかがより重要である。米国では、ユダヤ人が大規模製造業や商業銀行業で非常にうまくやっていることがわかりました。なぜなら、これらの分野は銀行業において政府と非常に密接に絡み合っている分野だからです。政府のフランチャイズが必要ですが、おそらく米国内に産業は存在しません。商業銀行業界よりも責任のある重要な地位にあるように見えるかもしれないので驚くべきことにユダヤ人が少ない州では、独占が最も少ない最も競争の激しい業界で繁栄したのはどこですか オープンな民間または公的小売業ハリウッドの新しい産業はすべての人に開かれていた

なぜ、それはまったく新しい産業だったから、特権や権力といった一連の役職はなく、政府の関与もなかったので、ユダヤ人が最善を尽くし、私が話しているのは他の少数派だけではないのですかアメリカのユダヤ人を見ると、アメリカの日本人を見ると、アメリカの黒人を見ると、どの場合においても、彼らは、最も激しい競争があった分野では最も良い成績を収めており、彼らは最も悪い成績を収めた分野では、あなた方は最も独占的であり、政府と最も政府との結びつきを持っているので、一方ではユダヤ人がイスラエルを見て、社会主義が世界の勝利であると仮定しているのと同じように、資本主義から多くの利益を得ている人々は世界中にいないのです。イスラエルはその初期の困難な時期に、世界中の政府から、あるいは国民から、そして資本主義の要塞に少しだけ力を蓄えて少しの資金を蓄えたユダヤ人からの支援を得たのだろうか。ユダヤ人は資本主義から多大な恩恵を受けてきましたが、その一方で、それがあなたがここで提起した問題です、ユダヤ人は資本主義の知的基盤を損なうことに多大な貢献をした人々の一人であるという矛盾があります。これは現代のイスラエルにも存在する二分法です もちろん、それは存在していました では、どうやって貢献しますか ああ、それはわかりますね、私は貢献します できれば喜んで貢献しますが、人々が求めているのは知っていますよね彼らが聞きたいアドバイスをくれると知っている人々からのアドバイス イスラエルには優れた経済学者が不足していない 非常に良好な経済国があり、彼らは何をすべきかを知っている そして実際、イスラエルの経済学者は政府の政策に賛成していないイスラエルでは現状が現状である 米国でも経済学者が家賃規制などの価格固定政策などの多くの政府政策に一律に反対しているのと同じだ 同様にイスラエルの経済学者もほぼ満場一致で反対しているいくつかの政府による規制と規制 イスラエルで何が起こっているのかというと、新しい政党が政権を握ったということです、ラクートは民間企業への信念を宣言する政党です、政府の規模を縮小し、より大きな機会を与えるという願望を宣言します彼らの目標は素晴らしいです、彼らが達成することを願っています、彼らが実際に達成できるかどうかは完全に自信がありません、彼らが成功するかどうかについては多くの疑問があります、そして彼らが私にアドバイスをするかと尋ねてきたのは、彼らがそれを知っているからです私は自由経済を信じており、彼らの政策が私の政策であると信じており、私ができる限りの援助をすることができれば、その両方に喜んでいます。なぜなら、私は自由が繁栄することを望んでいることと、個人的に非常に強い共感と関心を持っているからです。




イスラエル 私は出自も文化もユダヤ人です 私は彼らの価値観と信念を共有しています イスラエルで起こった奇跡に対して多くの人が抱いている賞賛を共有します イスラエルの自由と力を維持するためのより効果的な政策に少しでも貢献できればと思いますもちろん喜んでそうさせていただきます政府の規模を縮小し、個人により多くの機会を与えたいと宣言している 彼らの目標は素晴らしいものである 私は彼らが達成することを願っている 実際に達成できるかどうかは完全に自信がありません 私は彼らが成功するかどうかとその理由について多くの疑問を持っていますなぜ彼らが私にアドバイスをしてくれるかと尋ねてきたのかというと、彼らは私が自由経済を信じていること、そして彼らの政策が私の政策であることを知っているからであり、私が援助できる限り、私は両方に喜んでいます。自由の繁栄、そしてまた、私はイスラエルに非常に強い個人的な共感と関心を持っているので

、私は出自と文化においてユダヤ人であり、彼らの価値観と信念を共有しており、イスラエルで起こった奇跡に対して多くの人が抱いている賞賛を共有しています。イスラエルの自由と強さを維持するためのより効果的な政策に貢献してください。私は喜んでそうするつもりです。政府の規模を縮小し、個人により多くの機会を与えたいと宣言している 彼らの目標は素晴らしいものである 私は彼らが達成することを願っている 実際に達成できるかどうかは完全に自信がありません 私は彼らが成功するかどうかとその理由について多くの疑問を持っていますなぜ彼らが私にアドバイスをしてくれるかと尋ねてきたのかというと、彼らは私が自由経済を信じていること、そして彼らの政策が私の政策であることを知っているからであり、私が援助できる限り、私は両方に喜んでいます。自由の繁栄、そしてまた、私はイスラエルに非常に強い個人的な共感と関心を持っているので、私は出自と文化においてユダヤ人であり、彼らの価値観と信念を共有しており、イスラエルで起こった奇跡に対して多くの人が抱いている賞賛を共有しています。イスラエルの自由と強さを維持するためのより効果的な政策に貢献してください。私は喜んでそうするつもりです。







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